Mobile vs. Desktop: Where Do You Convert?

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(00:50): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Seth Godin, teacher, author, and entrepreneur. With over three decades of experience inspiring people to level up and make a difference. He’s published 20 bestselling books translated into nearly 40 languages, including most recently, the Song of Significance, the Practice, and this is Marketing. Today we’re going to talk about a new book called This is Strategy, make Better Plans. It comes out dependent upon when you’re listening to this in mid-October of 2024, October 22nd, to be specific, he is a inducted into the Gorilla Marketing Hall of Fame, direct Marketing Hall of Fame, the Marketing Hall of Fame. And today I’m going to officially induct him into the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast Hall of Fame as well. So Seth, welcome to the show,

Seth Godin (01:47): John, like the actual duct tape, your podcast is really useful and it lasts. And last, thank you for having me once again.

John Jantsch (01:56): You bet. Been doing this for a while and I think that I’ve lost track, but this is at least your sixth appearance and I always enjoy it. Always look forward to it. Me too. So if I were to gather a panel of 10 people to put them in a room and ask them what is strategy? I know for experience, I would get 10 different answers. Maybe 12. Maybe 12. You’re right. And some of them would be nuanced. Some of them would just be flatrock. So I wonder if you could, at least for a baseline, what is your definit?

Seth Godin (02:29): Right. So that’s why I had to write a book and why it’s called This is Strategy. I want to answer that question. It’s not tactics, it’s not follow all the steps in the plan and then you’ll get your result. We need that. But that’s not strategy. Strategy is a philosophy of becoming. It is our awareness of the systems around us and our decisions that we make to use those systems to help us Cause the change we seek to make, it is an assertion about the future and it gets better if we talk about it.

John Jantsch (03:06): Sometimes I talk about how everybody has different notions of it and a lot of the confusion, I think people come by honestly. I mean Google the term marketing strategy and you will get said lists of tactics from what is supposed to be an authority. So I really get it. But your definition, a philosophy of becoming. Do you find that, while I think that is an amazing definition, do you find that people struggle with Can’t get my arms around that idea. I need something more tangible.

Seth Godin (03:38): For sure. That’s why it’s a book and not a blog post that people who have a strategy that is working look like they’re smarter than everybody else the same way. Good waves make a surfer seem better than they are. And our blindness to the available strategies is the main reason why we get stuck. And so there are countless examples and questions that we can go through to help us see what we couldn’t see before, and that once we learn to bring empathy to our work, everything about it gets easier.

John Jantsch (04:20): Yeah. So you jumped ahead of me. I was going to challenge you on the empathy word because quite frankly, I think a lot of times when people think about strategy, all they think about is how are we’re going to compete? And sometimes that doesn’t have a whole lot of empathy in it. So how should we be thinking rather than that limited view?

Seth Godin (04:40): Okay, so there is kindness and empathy, but I’m not making a kindness argument here. What I am saying is you might want to be the king of the world in charge of everything, but you are not

(04:53): That other individuals and organizations have agency, they can make a choice. And so when you wrote your breakthrough book about marketing, you wrote it in English that showed empathy for the reader you were seeking to serve because if you had written it in Czech, they wouldn’t have been able to read it no matter how much you insisted they do. So what we have to do is acknowledge that the people we are seeking to do business with, we are here to serve them. And they don’t know what we know. They don’t see what we see. And that’s okay. If we don’t go to where they are, they’re definitely not going to come to where we are. And that has to be built into our understanding of the choices and the systems and the decisions and the time as we compete because you don’t have to have pity for your competitors, but it really helps to have empathy for anyone who has agency.

John Jantsch (05:51): So again, in my world, probably to some extent in your world, although yours is a little broader, more diverse maybe in some cases, audiences, I talked to a lot of marketers and so when they think strategy, it’s a business strategy for gaining more customers or something along those lines. Would you also say, well no, this is something every individual needs to be thinking about. I mean, we all need people strategies.

Seth Godin (06:16): Well, from a very practical point of view, let’s start with the 17-year-old who lived down the street who I helped get into college, and he just made the most expensive financial decision of his life. It’s going to put him a quarter of a million dollars in debt. And he did it without a strategy. He decided to go to a place that isn’t worth the money and isn’t going to pay off because he was judging it on what did it feel like to visit the college campus and how will that window sticker make him feel? Well, if he had said out loud before he started, that was his goal. It would be coherent, but he didn’t say it out loud. It was intuitive. He didn’t really have a strategy. He was just stumbling in the dark. So we easily become the victim of a credit card company, the victim of someone in our life, in our family who isn’t engaging with us in a way that’s productive with our boss if we don’t have a strategy.

(07:19): So when I got out of business school, my strategy was super simple. I want to get a job at the fastest growing company that will hire me. I don’t care what they make because if it’s the fast growing company, I’m more likely to find a smart boss and I’m more likely to get exposed to interesting problems. And that two years will set me up for the next thing I want to do. And the person sitting next to me in class, their strategy was, business school is really expensive. I’m going to go work for the most prestigious, highest paying job I can get. And time demonstrated that I probably had a better strategy because the trajectory of my career over time was different. And so when we invest in time as we make these choices, whether it’s understanding what the admissions office wants or understanding what our partner wants or understanding what the customers for our locksmith company want, it’s all the same thing. It’s do we see the game? Do we see time? Do we see systems? And what moves are we going to make?

John Jantsch (08:27): So you mentioned system, so I was definitely going to go there as well. You talk about systems delivering value. I’ve gone as far as saying the system for many business is the strategy

Seth Godin (08:41): You’re using system I think a little differently than me. Tell me what you mean by system.

John Jantsch (08:45): When I created Duct Tape Marketing, I actually decided people needed a marketing system. And that if I could at least come in and say, look, here’s something we can do and we could repeat for a lot of folks and we’re going to install a system, which people were like, why didn’t I think of a system for marketing? That’s how I’m using it. And that’s been my body of work

Seth Godin (09:06): And that’s super important. But the reason you need one is you are trying to make a change in a system outside of your company and having a persistent tool inside your company is the only way to do it. So what are the systems we’re talking about an example I like to share how much should a wedding cost? And the answer is exactly what my best friend spent plus $20. And that’s why weddings cost a hundred thousand dollars. Now, the wedding industrial complex is a system, all these people in the system making decisions that if the system didn’t exist would seem absurd, right? But they’re not absurd because they are part of something. The healthcare system in the United States does not make health. It makes treatments. And there are all these, well-meaning people in the system, but they make decisions that don’t make any sense outside the system, but inside the system make perfect sense. So if we’re going to dance with any existing system, we need an internal system. So we can repeatedly do our work, but we better be able to see what the system in the outside world does in order to be able to make a change there.

John Jantsch (10:24): You make what I still, I’ve actually said this in various ways for many years, ports that you actually as a business get to choose your customers. And you have said that, and I think a lot of people are like, that’s completely wrong. That’s not how it works. The customer is always right. I just have to find enough people to give me money and whatever they want I need to create. And this notion of choosing your own customers to some people seems a little elitist almost is when it comes to business. But boy, is it a much more enjoyable way to do business.

Seth Godin (10:56): Yeah, well, this is a breakthrough and of course it’s elitist. You deserve that. You deserve to spend your days offering this thing. You’re offering to the people who will appreciate it and engage with you in a way that’s helpful. When you take anyone off the street, you have sacrificed your agency and vision for randomness. So David Chang’s a famous chef and he’s been in the news for many years. Before he was famous, he had a tiny restaurant in New York City called Momo Fuco and it hadn’t been reviewed yet. It only had 40 seats and you could sit at the counter. I don’t know how I stumbled on it is where my kids were younger, the four of us, my wife and kids would get in the electric car drive to Manhattan and go there for lunch on Saturday. And we would sit at the counter and I haven’t had meat in 40 years and I would say, I would like the Brussels sprouts.

(11:53): Please leave out the bacon that benefits both of us. You don’t have to waste the bacon and I can eat them. And the first three weeks we went, I loved it. And the fourth week, the guy behind the counter, I’m pretty sure it was David said, there’s a vegetarian restaurant a few doors down. I think going forward, you guys would be happier there. We put this on the menu, we like bacon, thanks for coming, but don’t come back. And that was the day in my book, he became David Chang because he said, I’m going to build a restaurant not for people who are hungry. There are countless restaurants for people who are hungry. I’m going to build a restaurant for people who want to see what David Chang wants to make. And you can do that in any line of work or you can be a commodity. Those are your two choices. If you want to be a commodity, you got to put up with whoever’s going to give you the money. But if you pick your customers, you can pick your future.

John Jantsch (12:52): I’m not sure if there’s the flip side or if this is actually to me an advancement of that same idea. You also talk about choosing your competition. And I think that one is in some ways even more brilliant because I don’t think anybody thinks about that idea. It’s like, no, this is who I compete with as opposed to, oh, this is the category I’m going to actually claim.

Seth Godin (13:13): Yeah, right. So a lot of your customers, John, actually want a job without a boss. There’s nothing shameful in that they’re freelancers at scale. They’re not entrepreneurs who are claiming an unfolding future. And so they find a category where they can put out a sign and wait for the customers to come. They’ve already determined who their competitors are. They intuitively picked. But if you decide that you are going to compete with scammers and spammers and people who are always fast talking and racing to the bottom, you’re either going to do that or you’re going to fail, right? You pick them that when you decide to be a plastic surgeon in Columbus, Ohio and there’s only one other plastic surgeon, your practice is going to be different than if you’re a plastic surgeon in Park Avenue in New York. You pick your competitors and then you pick the standards that your customers are going to measure you by.

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Seth Godin (15:38): Exactly. That’s exactly right. Positioning is a generous model. It is not differentiation. It is saying to your customers, if you are looking for this is what I have. If you’re looking for that, let me give you the fun number of those people.

(15:54): And there’s a story, it may be apocryphal, I don’t think it is, of several of companies. Were trying to build big financial institutions, people like Fidelity, et cetera. And one of them did some research and discovered that 80% of their customer service calls were coming from 5% of their customers. And that these customers tended to have low balances. So they decided to write all of these people a very respectful letter saying, we don’t think we’re the place for you. We are having trouble serving this. Here are the phone numbers of three of our competitors. Please find someone who’s a better fit. Well, when you move those customers away, you freed up your entire customer service team and you’ve established your position in the marketplace, which is we are here for people of a certain kind of resource and a certain kind of question. And those people over there, that’s where you should go if you’re a different kind of customer.

John Jantsch (16:49): So when it really comes down to it, people who read books, love tools, they love like, oh, this philosophy of becoming is great, but what are the 40 questions that I need to ask in order to develop my own strategy? You happen to actually have that for us. So how did you decide on what that very curated list should be?

Seth Godin (17:11): Well, it’s not that curated because I could have had 40 different questions. It’s designed to prompt you down the path. And the way I did it was after I wrote the first draft of the book, I made 45 videos to become a Udemy course, which is in the world now. And then I had 350 people inside the purple.space community. I gave them access to the course for free and watched them do the course. And it was very cool to be able to watch other people have interactions about it. I could see where they were getting stuck and instead of me diving in and clarifying, I just clarified it in the book. And what I have found is it asking simple questions. Who’s it for? What’s it for? What is the change I seek to make? Who else has done this before me? What assets do I need?

(18:05): What do I need to learn? These are very straightforward questions that we avoid every day. And I know this because I spend time talking to friends about their projects. And when I bring up any of these questions, they get slightly anxious because left unsaid, you’re off the hook, left unsaid. Well, whoever needs it. But if you have to say it, then if it doesn’t come true, you’ve made a claim that you’re responsible for. But if you’re going to spend your limited days on this project, please say it to just two or three people. Say it to claude.ai, own it and see what other people say back.

John Jantsch (18:49): It’s funny, I work with a lot of organizations and I’m sure you have as well. You take one look at me, you’re like, well, it’s obvious what you need to do. And yet they have really brilliant people inside the organization that are like, oh my God, that’s brilliant. Why didn’t somebody tell us that? Why is it so hard for people that are in it every day to see strategy or even rather than just like, here’s what we do, phone’s still ringing. Keep churning.

Seth Godin (19:18): Yeah, well, so there are many differences between you and me. You are way more patient than I am.

(19:23): And that’s one of the reasons why I have never done a day of consulting in my life. Because in person, when someone hires a consultant, they often want them to solve their problem. And what you have the patience to understand is only they can solve their problem and your job is to create the conditions for them to see how to do that. But I have sat with people running for president. I’ve sat with people who are billionaires, people who run giant organizations, friends, and they have no clue what their strategy is. And if you point out what a possible strategy might be, you can watch their eyes light up and they realize someone just showed them a path when they thought they had to go through the woods. And then inevitably they get off the path and they go back to the woods because it’s hard to say no in the short run. So you can say yes in the long run, it’s easier to say yes to the urgency of right now and then have to dig your way out of a hole later. You have no choice. And so strategy is this affirmative action, this decision-making to say, I have the internal discipline to turn that down so I can do that instead.

John Jantsch (20:38): Yeah, that’s one of the brilliant things about having a clear view of what your strategy is. It actually helps tell you what not to do. Does it?

Seth Godin (20:48): Yeah. That’s actually the hardest part.

John Jantsch (20:50): And I think that’s what people are struggling, especially entrepreneurs are struggling with the most. There’s so many things they can do and there’s no filter for what they should do.

Seth Godin (20:59): So they end up doing mediocre this, mediocre this, but at least they did everything. So in my case, when Twitter showed up, I was early, could have had quite a big following on Twitter. And I said, but if I say yes to that, what am I going to do less of? Am I willing to become a mediocre blogger to become a pretty good twitterer? And I was like, no, that’s not my choice to be there. It’s my choice to be here. Let me focus on the thing that fuels my strategy as opposed to serving somebody who’s decided I would make them happier if I did that instead.

John Jantsch (21:37): Yeah. And as it turns out, you were so good, you ended up having a big follow on Twitter anyway without even participating there. It was amazing. No, brilliant. So would you say that one of the things that holds people back, call it mistake, call it a choice, is that generally speaking, especially a going entity, there is going to be some pain before there is gain to actually adopt a clear strategy because you’re going to have to invest. And it’s not a short-term effect.

Seth Godin (22:09): I think there’s already pain and you’ve justified the pain because doing your work and there’s going to be a shift for sure, there’s going to be taking a deep breath and saying, we’re not going to do that anymore. So there’s a lot of things to criticize about Jack Welch, but one of the smart things that Jack Welch did was their strategy is if we can’t be number one or number two in a category, we’re not going to do it anymore. So that’s why General Electric stopped making toasters

John Jantsch (22:41): Because

Seth Godin (22:42): They said, we can make a pretty good toaster and an okay return, but let’s just sell this toaster division and focus on someplace where we can win. That was painful, but it ended up, at least for a while, being a really smart move because being a meaningful specific is better than being a wandering generality that can fuel many strategy choices.

John Jantsch (23:05): So the last, I’ll end up here with a timing question. The last decade at least, I mean, I’ve been doing this 30 years. We didn’t have the internet in marketing when I started, right? I, so we can talk about how much has changed, but the last decade, I feel like as every coming decade, it just feels like the speed of change accelerates. So how big is a lot of times when people make a great strategic decision, it was just good time. So is there an element of luck to this? Because who knows what the next quarter’s going to bring?

Seth Godin (23:42): There’s a huge amount of luck. What we’re trying to figure out is how can you make the deck as stacked as you can before you have to pick a card? And the thing about change is this systems change when they have to, not when they want to. And what forces the system to change is a shift in communications information or technology because systems depend on those things to maintain their status quo. Well, guess what? The biggest systems change in history is happening right this second. And when systems confront the combination of climate and ai, they are going to be transformed. If you show up when a system is in flux and embrace what the system is about to become, it’s like being a surfer who gets a perfect wave, that learning to use the systems when they’re shifting to help the system get what it’s wanted all along, that two hours of work will pay off in 2000 hours of benefit. And this is the moment to do that.

John Jantsch (24:53): I said that was my last question, but then you opened up the whole box on what you’re doing on climate. We could do a whole show, I’m sure you have done entire shows. Can you give sort of a one minute invitation to people to find out more about the work you’re doing?

Seth Godin (25:08): So I volunteered for a year and a half full time and built the Carbon Almanac with 1900 other people. It’s at the carbon almanac.org and it is a judgment free book, 97,000 words, footnoted fact-check illustrated with cartoons. And you can look up anything that’s in it, and if you don’t agree, but you need to know, you need see and understand what is actually going on. Carbon in the air is invisible, but easily measured, and it doesn’t match the way we grew up in the world to imagine that the weather is just something that shifts back and forth. The climate is not, the weather and the climate is changing in a way that’s going to create 15 million refugees without homes in the next five years. It’s going to put American cities completely underwater. You don’t have to like it, but it’s happening. So the question is, what will we all do about it? And it’s going to be really hard to make that decision in 20 years, but if you know now what’s coming, it represents not just an urgency, but an enormous opportunity.

John Jantsch (26:20): Well, and if you think the wars over oil have been bad, which we see the wars over water.

Seth Godin (26:25): Yeah,

John Jantsch (26:26): We actually need water. We don’t really need oil. That’s going to be, I’m not sure what it’s going to be anyway, Seth, as always, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop on Duct Tape Marketing podcast. And I know people can find your books anywhere, but there any place you’d want to invite people to find out more about this as stretch?

Seth Godin (26:48): I built a page at Seth’s blog slash tis, and there’s some videos and links and other things there. We made this really fun deck that has 5 million combinations of prompts in it. Add a collectible chocolate bar, my first one ever with a trading card and everything inside. Very fun.

John Jantsch (27:05): Well again, appreciate you taking a moment to stop by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days again, out there on the road.